1x71: Divisions

Jono Bacon, Jeremy Garcia, and Stuart Langridge (Bryan is unavoidably absent but present in spirit) bring you Bad Voltage, in which there is worry about the future, there is concern about the present, there is revision of the past, and:

  • 00:02:12 Brexit. The UK voted by referendum to leave the European Union, thus ushering in a world of despair and misery not seen since the bits about seven bowls in Revelation. Or, the UK voted by referendum to leave the European Union, thus seizing back control of the country. What's the deal with Brexit? How's it being presented both in and out of the country? And what happens next?
  • 00: 37:05 Starting a discussion about next generation packaging systems. Snappy, Flatpak, AppImage are vying to be the new hotness. This is a potentially long discussion, so here we just start it off: a summary from our point of view of what's going on here, and then we invite you to give your thoughts on community.badvoltage.org and we'll bring that wider discussion back in a later show
  • 00:44:35 We were asked the question: when should you open source? If you're a company or a project, what goes into the decision to open source your code, what reasons are there to do it and to not do it, and why do some and not others?

Download the show now!

I’m a little upset @bryanlunduke is not on the show again !
What is happening here ?!
Is this the end ?



My backhanded compliment for the presenters:

The Britain/EU segment was surprisingly coherent. I found Stuart’s discussion of the wishful thinking of the ‘remain’ voters to be particularly magnanimous.

I didn’t think another discussion on the topic could be worthwhile, but it was. Well done to all three.


Much appreciated, @steven!

I have just paused this podcast at the end of the “Brexit” section to add my observations, I will return to listening to the show once I have finished this post. Like @sil I voted to remain, I actively campaigned for this both as a Labour party member and as an individual by getting people to actively discuss the arguments at every opportunity I could, for example over a beer in a bar.

I wont give you a detailed explanation as to why I believe Brexit is a really bad idea as I feel Stuart’s politics are very similar to mine and he expressed the argument brilliantly. I am prepared to expand on my views however if people want me to.

I can confirm that Ladywood is a very nice part of Birmingham and I am not surprised most in that area voted to remain, there are several other parts of Birmingham I would have expect to vote to leave.

Immigration was a big issue for many I spoke to where I live, Cambridgeshire, but while for some there may have racist factor here, I think this is a tiny minority. Some are concerned about strain on resources such as the NHS but for many the main concern is wages: with high immigration there is a lot of pressure to push earnings down as its easier to find someone who will work for less.

There are clear trends: age, education, earning power on what people voted for. For example had the minimum voting age been 16 instead of 18 we would probably have had a different result.

Finally this stands a chance of breaking up the UK as many in Scotland believe this gives them the right to call for a second referendum: I am very sympathetic to their cause.

Edit: I would love to hear from people who voted to leave especially if they are still happy with their decision.

Happy to hold my hand up. In fact, my only concerns relate to whether we’ll actually see a proper Brexit, or if some fudge is enacted like membership of the EEA – as mentioned on the show, this would absolutely be the worst outcome, with financial contributions only slightly lower, acceptance of free movement, and the minimal amount of influence we currently have over EU decision making removed.

I wouldn’t have been able to write this post – even just a week ago – without somebody wanting to rehash the campaign arguments and getting extremely angry about the lies and misinformation spread during it. And there was plenty of that. From both sides. But things are slowly moving on, and most remain voters publicly appear to have reached at least the bargaining stage of the Kübler-Ross model.

Clearly one of the reasons that the vote came as such a shock to many is that they are so out of touch with the reality of daily life for many in our country. Most working in tech – like those in the mainstream media – are pretty affluent, and only see the personal upside of the economic model that’s been in global ascendancy since the '80s. But, and outside of their social circles, are millions who either haven’t directly benefited, or don’t perceive that they have. And remember that we don’t judge ourselves by our absolute wealth – which may well have broadly increased for all in the last 40 years – but by our relative wealth, by how we’re doing in comparison to others. And in those terms, life really does look pretty bleak for many. This is largely why the remain ‘Project Fear’ campaign failed to cut through among this section of the electorate – if life feels bad already, dire threats of it getting worse simply won’t cut it.

That’s not to suggest that there won’t be negative short/medium-term economic impacts of the vote. I believe there will be, and we’re seeing some already (although the Pound was overvalued previously, so some correction is welcome). However, I believe – and this was a factor in determining my vote – that in the long-term our economy will benefit from our collective decision and the freedom now available to pursue opportunities outside of a sclerotic European economy. But I’m happy to grant that this is purely (hopefully informed) speculation, and only time will tell.

Congratulations to @sil for attempting to present a balanced picture, despite his stated bias, and in particular for calling out some of the memes like ‘buyer’s remorse’ that post-vote polling have shown to have little validity, despite media attempts to tell a different story.

On a slightly different tack, I’d be interested to know whether the outcome of our recent vote has caused the BV team to re-think their implacable belief that Clinton will triumph come November? Many of the socio-economic factors that figured in the result here are also at play in the USA and, whilst it can be hard to see past the comforting (and confirming) media caricatures of the campaign protagonists for those in an affluent liberal bubble, I suspect that you may all be in for a rather rude awakening.

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I’m the guy who asked about open source, awesome thing that you made it a segment :smiley: .
Can’t wait to listen to the whole episode later today!

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Unable to add the brexit discussion from a personal point of view as Aq more or less stands in my position and nailed virtually all the points. My only difference is I live in Scotland and it has serious implications in terms of what happens next in terms of Scottish independence.

Jeremy might like to know that the original referendum in Scotland for a Scottish parliament was a “super-referendum” and I quote wikipedia “An amendment to the Act stipulated that it would be repealed if fewer than 40% of the total electorate voted Yes in the referendum. The result was that 51.6% supported the proposal, but with a turnout of 64%, this represented only 32.9% of the registered electorate. The Act was subsequently repealed.”

By my calculations, the EU vote would have similarly failed.

My parents voted in the original referendum but they were voting for a very different thing to what the EU actually became. For that reason they were originally going to vote leave, but I managed to persuade them otherwise.


No comment.

Bravo chaps, a solid show

It’s strange, when I read the shownotes outlining a discussion on brexit I was looking forward to hearing Bryan’s take on the EU political structure and what influences it has on member states. I am a bit disappointed that he was absent and the discussion didn’t go more in depth with contrasting opinions. (I actually wish paddy joined to have a more contrasting and indepth voice to sil)

I respect many people’s votes to remain in the EU as honestly, many of the reasons are valid and I was close to voting this way but I fundamentally couldn’t bring myself to vote for an institution with a political branch that lies outside of democratic control (The European Commission).

Just to be sure this is clear… I’m the one BV host who thinks Clinton is not likely to be in office this time next year. :slight_smile:

Yeah, I was bummed I couldn’t be there too. :wink:

I would also like to hear @bryanlunduke 's opinion on this and other peoples opinion. It is not yet clear what Brexit means. As one of the biggest economic nations this has global implications.

Brexit Lite:
Britain negotiates its self into remaining part of the EEA, (European Economic Area) or Common Market. This effectively means that the UK still has to except the free movement of people, in exchange for the free movement of goods, and most of the European legislation but with much less power (zero) to define what those regulations are. It would also require the UK to continue to contribute to the European project financially, though at a lowe level than it does now.

Brexit Full:
Britain cuts all links with Europe as a group and has to renegotiate deals with the existing European countries on a one by one basis so we might for example have free movement of goods and people between Germany and the UK but have limitations on say Poland involving import and export tariffs on goods and requiring its people to apply for a visa to enter. This is not a trivial task. This also suggests that the UK is not tied to EU legislation.

However, as someone involved in the design and manufacture of electronic goods I can tell you that if I can show, via an approved test house, that I meet the relevant standards of both the US and EU for my product I can sell my product anywhere on the planet. In a post Brexit world the UK could allow the existing BS (British Standards) to drift away from the current EN (European Norms) but if it did then we would either need to get an agreement that approval to a BS standard is superior to an EN so that UK companies can continue to export or UK companies would need to get additional approvals to export. Put the other way if BS standards were considered, in certain areas, to be more stringent than EN or US requirements then other countries would need to get BS approval to ship to the UK. This results in an higher cost to manufactures to gain approval to ship products worldwide or a limit on where products can be shipped.

I will leave it, for now, for others to comment on what others think the consequences of Brexit are, not only for the UK but globally, and would love to hear more from people outside to UK to get their perspective. Though this does not mean I think UK residents should be silent. As long as we continue to respect each other, even when we disagree, the more voices we hear the better we will understand the true consequences of this are.

Interesting episode! Not being located in Europe, it is interesting to get some average blokes’ opinions about what is happening with the Brexit.

One question I was hoping would be addressed is how this affects IT security laws in the UK. I know that the EU has many strict laws to protect the individual’s privacy. So with the Brexit, could there be less privacy, as I remember on the news some members of parliament stating they wanted to restrict encryption. Is there any IT risk involved?

I voted to Leave - and, in fact, campaigned and flyered in support of the Leave campaign, although I tried to pick flyers which put the case for leaving positively rather than negatively (see here) and I think that they made a big mistake focussing on the £350m a week figure, and also invoking the UK’s national religion (the NHS). The true figure that is eminently defensible is about £250m a week, the post-rebate figure, and that still seems plenty big enough to me to stick on the side of a bus. But then, I’m not in charge of the campaign, and I could hardly print and distribute my own flyers.

I wrote a paper about my reasons for leaving, which is here, although obviously the angle they come from may affect how convincing you find them.

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I know I promised to remain silent until we heard a few more voices but in the last few years the Cameron and previous Brown and Brown and Blair governments have all looked to limit encryption and extend surveillance of the UK population. So yes this is in my opinion an ongoing and very real risk.

There seems to be an assumption that someone on the internet is a paedophile, racist, terrorist …, You are on the internet which are you?

Re “Brexit full” and your idea we’d negotiate individual agreements with EU countries - that cannot happen. Being in the EU (unsure about EEA) means effectively no individual free trade agreements with outside countries - that’s one good argument for leaving on the more intellectual side, that out of it we’ll make more of our commonwealth and other non-EU trade links. Things revert to (maybe not automatically) WTO standards if you’re in that (EU membership gives oneself that but we were already in it before)

I’m a remain voter but I can share the views of my dad who is a clear leave voter and still happy with his choice. He is a retired, intelligent, multi-broadsheet-reading ex-London-City(but only for work - rurally living) ship broker for a European-owned firm. His Leave vote had not much to do with immigrants but more to do with sovereignty and some EU laws that have done us harm in the past (eg. 1st one he always quotes is the Common Fisheries Policy, that tried to control overfishing with limits that meant fishers had to throw back fish they caught, now dead and edible, into the water; a ban on throwing back some species has since improved the situation I believe?)

He now wishes they’d hurry up and use article 50/repeal the act giving EU laws power over ours and thinks Cameron’s quitting was all to build up buyers remorse as the uncertainty troubled the country and hit us where it hurt (and Noone has a Leave plan in place).

Of course he knows that you can’t just go straight into negotiations, takes time to build a team and figure out your play or you end up being totally outgunned and outwitted.

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I voted leave as it was the only way I could hit a bunch of privileged etonian gents who have glided through every day of their life and it was obvious they would leave if they lost as well they would have to do some hard work. I voted to leave as London has stripped the rest of the country dry. Voting for Brexit was also the first chance we had to put a break on globalisation. Globalisation does not create innovation but instead create bigger and bigger monopolies with no diversity and jobs concentrated in very specific areas. I can see reasons for Remain, I do like Europe and have worked there but Brexit gave a chance of hitting back.

Pity it will all be lies. Doubt if Theresa May will block this ARM takeover. Thank goodness for the City and Globalidation.

You’re right, it’s not a trivial task. It’s not a non-trivial task either; it’s an impossible task. The whole point of EU trade deals is to benefit the EU as a whole. You cannot, cannot, cannot, as a non-EU state, enter into a one-to-one trade deal with an EU state — you must enter into trade deals with the whole EU.

You quote Viviane Reding, giving her the title of “Vice President of the European Commission”. She is the former Vice President for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship, having left that office in July 2014.

You call the European Commission “unelected”, despite their uncanny resemblance to an equally unelected Cabinet. The EC’s president is elected by the European Parliament (a more democratic method than the elevation of the leader of a majority party to Prime Minister), and the EC President nominates Vice Presidents and assigns Commissioners (each one nominated by each of the EU member states), similar to the nomination of ministers or secretaries in a Cabinet.

Please respect our code of conduct which is simple: don't be a dick.