Segment "suggestion": basic income

Totally heard that in a Ewan McGregor / Obi-Wan Kenobi voice :wink:

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I do understand the point you are making, so I am not asking for clarification. Iā€™m just hoping that you donā€™t think that all these people have no regard for their neighbor. Itā€™s obvious that is the case with many, unfortunately.

No problem, feel free to go ahead in this thread if you wish :slight_smile:

People are free to seek out the society of those they find it most congenial to live among. The Bible says we should love one another. If you throw in your lot with people who donā€™t believe that, well, you made your choice. Why should someone else pay the cost of your desire to associate with people who donā€™t care about you?

If you are an abbatoirist (?) who lives among vegans, move or get a new profession. Thereā€™s no law of the universe that says you get to keep the same job your whole life. Ask the buggy whip manufacturers in the age of the car.

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This argument is predicated upon the assumption that everyone has the power and the means to do what you suggest. If I bind you to a chair and gag you, and then tell you that you are free to get up from the chair any time you please, are you actually free to do so?

Your analogy is silly. No-one is that bound to living in or associating with a particular community. If you live in a town, or city, there are multiple communities you could be part of. Even in a rural area there will be several. And anyway, if people are banding together to share e.g. healthcare costs, they donā€™t have to live next door. See e.g. https://samaritanministries.org/ .

Zimbabwe. Mauritania. Myanmar. North Korea.

At least tell us which utopian planet you are living on, so that we can have a chance to join you.

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Well yes, Iā€™m not proposing this for those countries, am I? The implicit context of our discussion is a democracy where the people get to choose their own laws. In that context, I am proposing that we choose to have society be large and government be small, because that is better for peopleā€™s wellbeing.

ā€œYour political proposals couldnā€™t be implemented if we lived in a dictatorshipā€ is hardly a convincing point against them. Lots of good things canā€™t be done in a dictatorship.

So you want to disenfranchise those who receive assistance from the public purse because you donā€™t think itā€™s right that everyone (where possible) should contribute to it, and you want to retain your utopian caring sharing New Testament anti-tithe free-hugs community only for those places where it would be ā€œeasyā€ to implement? Or do you not feel those under an oppressorā€™s boot deserve freedom too?

Yeah, itā€™s easier to just roll over and ignore those lesser off than the rest of us. Just like youā€™re implying should be done in your taxless society. Even in the most generous scenario, there will always be people who donā€™t think the same way you do.

And speaking of dictatorships, have you even seen whatā€™s happening in the United Kingdom and the United States lately?

Now youā€™re trolling.

@gerv @neuro

Guys, it seems to me that this discussion here is on a bad trajectory.
You are arguing about something that is important to both of you.
From what you both wrote so far itā€™s safe to assume that you are capable of talking in an opinionated, but respectful way.
Iā€™m not a moderator, but since i started the thread, I take the liberty to ask you - maybe itā€™s totally unnessesary - to calm down a bit in here.

Best regards
Tobi

Iā€™d agree that @gerv and @neuro have strongly different views but I donā€™t see any problem with that as long as we all show respect. From what I have seen so far in this thread I have no complaints.

There is nothing wrong with being passionate about your views, mine are probably very close to those of @neruo but since there is nobody is being offensive or trying to shut down discussion here, I am happy for it to continue.

I remember some time back @oldgeek and myself were pretty vocal about @bryanlunduke and his views on professor Stephen hawking.

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