I tried Elementary, some thoughts

I would suggest mentioning in the OP that this is for Luna because I (and I suspect most) assumed you tried the Freya Beta freshly released.

Funnily enough a few days ago I installed Freya beta on my Thinkpad X220, replacing Mint. I have a few minor gripes but in general I really like the interface (especially since I’m a Mac user too). If you have a desktop interface you are going to look at for 8-16 hours today you want it to be ascetically pleasing. Stock Ubuntu and Fedora is not that, not even close. My Fedora desktop I tweak significantly but with Elementary Freya I haven’t even changed the background.

I admit I don’t try to get the same usage out of it as Jono, my mail, calendars, etc… are all handled by my Mac and my Linux boxes are pure dev/test machines.

Not commenting on the rest, but… freya isn’t released. Things destined for actual people ought to be reviewed on what the actual people run. Which is released software.

Just because an ISO has a beta label on it doesn’t mean it isn’t released. As with many things in Open Source.

“Beta is a stage in software development where we expose our progress to a group of brave testers.” - http://elementaryos.org/journal/freya-beta-1-available-for-developers-testers. It is Not Cricket to simultaneously say “use the beta! it fixes your problems!” but then dismiss complaints about it not working with “that’s because it’s a beta! it’s not ready yet!”. Elementary are pretty clear that their target market is not open source technical whizzkids who beta-test software for fun, and therefore should be reviewed on that basis.

God damn it Elementary! Fix your marketing so I can win the argument! :wink:

It is Not Cricket to simultaneously say “use the beta! it fixes your problems!” but then dismiss complaints about it not working with “that’s because it’s a beta! it’s not ready yet!”. Elementary are pretty clear that their target market is not open source technical whizzkids who beta-test software for fun, and therefore should be reviewed on that basis.

Jono is complaining about a release that is several years old when there is a new release, in beta, that he could review to provide a more relevant opinion on the matter. Some of the issues he pointed out are already addressed in the beta.

Elementary are pretty clear that their target market is not open source technical whizzkids who beta-test software for fun, and therefore should be reviewed on that basis.

Right. Jono Bacon isn’t an “open source technical whizzkid” (no offense Jono). He wanted to review an operating system, the least he could do is review the latest revision of it, not something outdated.

He didn’t, plain and simple. Lets not try to play semantics and be like “ooohhh it is technically beta therefore not released blah blah blah” b.s. It is out there, for the public to try, and his opinions are already nullified for the most part. End of story.

I think that’s perfectly reasonable, as long as you’re happy to say that if someone reviews the beta and a thing doesn’t work, you’re not allowed to say that that’s because it’s a beta and isn’t finished yet. Now, to be clear, that’s explicitly not what the elementary project themselves say, but I think it’s fair that if someone says “elementary is rubbish because I tested freya and it crashed all the time” that your response is “yep, it’s rubbish; sorry”, and not “that’s because you’re running a beta”. The key point here is that it is unkosher to avail oneself of all the benefits of being in beta but none of the deficits when challenging reviewers.

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I think that’s perfectly reasonable, as long as you’re happy to say that if someone reviews the beta and a thing doesn’t work, you’re not allowed to say that that’s because it’s a beta and isn’t finished yet.

Let’s roll with a situation for a sec. Lets say Jono was to review freya-beta1 and make the remark that his Google account doesn’t sync his calendar with Maya (the Calendar app). I think it would be perfectly valid to say “yes, that is a known issue, here is a link to the bug, you should expect it to be fixed by release”. I agree that saying “oh, it is beta and not finished yet, so that is what you get for reviewing it” is rubbish.

I think it’s fair that if someone says “elementary is rubbish because I tested freya and it crashed all the time” that your response is “yep, it’s rubbish; sorry”, and not “that’s because you’re running a beta”.

I think it would be more appropriate to not say “yes it is rubbish” and more saying “ok, what issues were you having, what was crashing, lets see about fixing this so your experience is better next time you try it”. If Noise was to crash (and let me tell you, it does), I wouldn’t suddenly jump to the conclusion that the entire operating system is rubbish.

The key point here is that it is unkosher to avail oneself of all the benefits of being in beta but none of the deficits when challenging reviewers.

I’m not sure who is claiming that and I think it would be perfectly valid if Jono reviewed the beta and expressed both the benefits / improvements he sees as well as the cons. What I don’t think is valid is him reviewing a several year old release when there is clearly a new version (which yes, I acknowledge is currently in “beta”, but still released nonetheless) that tackles some of the issues he points out regarding consistence.

Reviewing a several year old release at this moment in time, when there is is both a beta and surely a stable release sooner-rather-than-later, is seriously untimely. I would’ve understood if he made these remarks when Luna was released, just not now. If people see the post, don’t fully understand that the issues he points out are, for a good part, already resolved, he could turn people off from the distribution entirely, solely based on outdated opinions and experience.

It’d be like me reviewing KDE 4.x and pointing out a lot of consistence issues that are resolved in KDE 5. It could turn people off KDE entirely just because my opinion is based on an older release and not something that, while in beta, resolves those issues.

Yep. It could, indeed. That’s what happens when there’s time between releases, and it’s one of the big arguments for a “rolling release” of a bit of software. However, the benefits of waiting until you’re happy with a release are also well-known, and that’s the route that elementary have decided to take. What you’re doing is trying to avail yourself of all the benefits of having fixed known-good releases (“hey, here is a product we are happy with, and we’re confident that it’s a good, consistent experience, so you can use it, people”) and all the benefits of roling-release (“that bug’s been fixed in the development version! so it’s not really a bug!”). Which, as I say, is not reasonable. Would it be OK if I complained about a problem in iOS 7 and somebody from Apple said “oh, that’s fixed in our internal builds, so it’s not actually a problem”? If it’s reasonable to review the beta, then you have to own the bugs in it at the time it’s reviewed – otherwise, you’re essentially telling any elementary user that they are a de facto elementary software tester as well. That’s pretty contrary to the elementary ethos, although it’s quite common for less user-focused operating systems.

Here is as good as a place to ask my questions.

I have always used Ubuntu because I can install it on my machine (for now it’s an old Dell laptop from the Windows Vista era) and everything works. Other distros I have tried, the wireless wouldn’t work on the first install, and I could not figure it out (I’m not too bright). How ‘inexperienced user’ friendly is Elementary?

It is based on Ubuntu 14.04 so if Ubuntu works Elementary “should” work…

To clarify what @nlsthzn said, freya-beta1 is based on Ubuntu 14.04.1. Luna is based on 12.04.

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My impression is that Elementary is lighter on resources than Ubuntu. Is that correct? Any timetable on the next stable release?

I personally find Pantheon to be lighter than Unity but if you have semi-solid hardware, you might not notice a big difference. Unity is really snappy these days.

The freya-stable release will be ready when it’s ready. Work is being done to land freya-beta2 (not by me personally, I’m doing other stuff and am not part of the elementary team) first before a stable release.

You captured my exact thoughts on the applications menu.

It is themed like the rest of the system but it doesn’t feel like it properly belongs with the rest of it. It just pops out there. An overlay like Unity’s or possibly a scrollable tray that is similar to Windows 8 Charms menu but for applications would work very well. It would feel more integrated, allow for quicker navigation and get out of the way for work while being quickly summoned and used when needed.

The typical application launcher of being stuck to a corner dictates workflows and leisure usage much more harshly than a bar or overlay. Just like Jono said, there is definitely a ton of potential available with Elementary. I always enjoy trying it out but I don’t stick it on anything for long. I look forward to the day when it’s really blazing. You can tell that there is a fire in the team there, they just need to be stoked consistently to a high level and that takes time.

I am also interested in this distro for I do believe that it is the one that Sherlock Holmes used.

Jono,
Try to keep in mind that the Elementary OS folks are trying something different from the rest, placing workflow logic and accessibility first. As it is now and will be for I while (I’m guessing) will likely be a work in progress. They have in thier plans, from interviews I’ve listened to, the removal of the Ubuntu software center and will develop thier own solution to that issue.

The Applications Menu, Window decor, icons, etc…:
Could be set up to look a little differently with an icon view and a more traditional looking menu type view. And it can also be modified further using elementary-tweaks (Not on the Beta though, youll need a script to fix most of it, due to changes being made to the interface with this iteration).

Calendar:
I think there was enough discussion on that already.

What I found interesting is that with Elementary OS because it got me up and running fast, I could actually get work done with it and not have to wrestle it to be able to use it. I could naturally feel how they were thinking with thier interface. AND its Ubuntu Based, so if I wanted some extra functionality, I could get it easily. For us Linux geeks, I think we underestimate how important that is for the casual, wanting to get out from under the OSX, and Windoze, worlds clutches.
Personally, I think they are doing the right thing with their distro. Which is, for the most part, none of the things that the other distros think will work for massive adoptation. Put user experience first, take your time with it and go for quality. Granted they aren’t 100% there yet, but its a really great start.
As far as the “MAC like” look thing… If were going to hold that against Elementary, please ensure you hold the “Gnome3 like” look of Apples newest revision of thier OS. Which would also, by relation, mean they (Apple) are imitating Elementary OS as they were using Gtk Gnome 3 based themes before Apple.
I’m just sayin…

Alrighty, as requested…I reviewed the newer Beta version. See You asked for it, Elementary Freya (Beta) review :slight_smile:

In terms of prettiness though, I think Gnome 3 looks fantastic these days and is genuinely great on touch devices. I know Elementary is about more than just looks, but it’s a big part.