Yeah, I have decided to bow out. Thanks everyone, for a great discussion, and one of the few discussions about religion online where people don’t start screaming at each other. 
I am proud of the BV community.
I’ve had about as much of this as I can stomach, I’m afraid. You don’t have to be religious or spiritual to know that some things are right and some things are wrong. It’s like having common law beside statute law. I don’t like being talked to, either directly or indirectly, as though I’m some sort of unworthy, immoral wastrel, undeserving of respect or truth, simply because the personally formed, personally owned beliefs in my head don’t align with religion.
I have personally seen nothing to persuade me that there is an almighty God, benevolent, kind, and rewarding of faith, devotion or anything else demanded of the pious. I have personally seen and experienced things which absolutely persuade me that if there is some kind of God, that they are anything but kind. They are ugly, cruel, and have no time for us mere mortals, other than to inflict unnecessary and unwarranted pain.
These are my own opinions, formed from personal experience. But the topic is a question. And I am permitted to answer it. Short of the Lord God Himself appearing in front of me, and apologising and explaining for murdering my brother, I shall not be swayed in my opinion. I shall not be told my opinion is wrong. I shall not be told my opinion should be changed. And I shall not be told that my opinion somehow makes me less of a person than someone who believes in God.
Yes, your opinion is your opinion also. You have every right to evince it, discuss it, debate it. But don’t demean while you’re doing it.
Done.
Hey neuro,
Clearly, this is a subject on which you have deep feelings, and is shaped by some painful experiences in your life. I have no wish to treat your pain glibly. But the very fact that you feel it, that you know that something is terribly wrong, your heart cries out for justice, that you know and hate evil when you see it, shows that deep down you believe that there is an ultimate right and wrong, binding on everyone. And consistent atheism flatly denies this. Whatever your religious beliefs are, you aren’t an atheist.
I am not arguing that all self-confessed atheists behave in evil ways or immorally, I’m arguing that consistent atheists don’t have the ability to use the words “evil” or “immoral” or even “unnecessary pain”, because such words imply an external standard we should all meet, that we are obliged to respect, and atheism denies that there is a Lawgiver. Atheists can choose to behave however they like, and all choices are equally consistent with their beliefs. That’s the terrifying thing.
Given that we all ignore and rebel against him, God doesn’t owe us anything - certainly not a comfortable, pain-free life. But Jesus came that we might know our Creator, be set free from our sin, receive his mercy and have true life, life to the full, in the knowledge that one day, all that is wrong with the world will be set right. For the atheist, as Death says in Pratchett, “There is no justice. There is only Me.” But for the Christian, one day, “[God] will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’”
[quote=“gerv, post:96, topic:11142”]
But the very fact that you feel it, that you know that something is terribly wrong, your heart cries out for justice, that you know and hate evil when you see it, shows that deep down you believe that there is an ultimate right and wrong, binding on everyone. And consistent atheism flatly denies this. Whatever your religious beliefs are, you aren’t an atheist.
[/quote]
…er:
Atheism is simply the disbelief in a god, not that the person doesn’t see and understand that good and evil exists in the world. The difference is that atheists see people as the source of that good and evil, not a god.
Perhaps the terms ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ are not the best ones to use here so I will substitute the presence or absence of Love. I want to be loved, I’m sure Jono and neuro do and I suspect almost everybody on the planet does too. This is not the prerogative of religion but a basic human need. It seems obvious to me that the only way I can rationally expect to receive this love, and respect, from others is to give it at every possible opportunity.
You may remember this topic I created: Mental Health Issues in it I reviled that I was going through a very bad patch because the brother of a close friend had committed suicide. My first reaction was not to say help me but to ask if anybody else needed help because as I saw it there was nothing that could be done for me: it had already happened. I was wrong: lots of people here in this community helped me a lot and I’m sure that we helped others too. This is basic human nature not an action to accumulate points we can cash in on come some day of judgement.
How can you claim I can’t use the words “unnecessary pain” I have seen it far too many times to count, in the UK and elsewhere. But I have also seen the ability of ordinary people, of every and no religious faith, to come together in the time of others need. If I am not to use the words ‘good’, ‘evil’, morality’ and ‘immorality’ what should I use instead?
I know the pain I feel when I see people being treated unjustly and I know that we are stronger when we stand together.
But if atheism is true, there is no global standard for “good” or “evil”. Right and wrong are personal choices, not global absolutes. So rather than using those words, it would be much clearer to say “things I approve of” and “things I disapprove of”. After all, other people may have different views; using words like “good” without qualification might suggest that morality is absolute rather than person-relative. But that would not be consistent with atheism.
If you think atheism is compatible with a global, applicable-to-all standard for good and evil, please tell me where that standard is defined, and by whom, and why everyone is obliged to agree with it.
Irrespective of religion or atheism, there is no standard for good and evil anyway. There are different individual definitions, but to your point there is no “global, applicable-to-all standard” of what good and evil are, but that is not specific to atheism, that applies to everything as many people have many different faiths (and non-faiths).
I would argue that this is semantics though. Put simply, I think people can have a decent moral compass and barometer without depending on god. I think what informs our definition of good and evil is more the societal norms that we have in place.
Wikipedia? (tee hee, Sorry, couldn’t resist the joke ;))
Oh noes…with such a lame joke too :0 Well, there it is 
I’m done with you, Gervase. I am a self-confessed agnostic, have been for over 25 years. What I wrote above should have confirmed that. I don’t need your tired impenetrable Biblical platitudes to console me for what the Catholic church did to my family. I’m tired of you telling me humans can’t be moral without a religious core.
I’m tired of you. Please don’t reply to this.
I dunno man, that’s not the impression I got from this
In fact, that looks a lot like what an atheist would say to me. I can get where the miscommunication occurred.
Besides, I don’t think WarrenHill intended this thread as a circle jerk (which admittedly is common on this subject matter) when they started it. Rather, a conversation amongst friendlies with diverse views. How 'bout that? Gerv is a friendly to you <3 In fact, eveyone here seems to be strangely so (mind you, I’m used to typing /g or /r before reading a thread…so my bar’s not that high ;))
Let’s keep this friendly, pal.
What does “decent” even mean, if “there is no standard for good and evil anyway”?
You keep smuggling a standard back in so you can use words like “decent” with some expectation that other people will know what you mean. But you can’t have it both ways. Either there’s a standard, or “decent” actually means “approved by me”, in which case your statement is correct but not particularly useful.
So in 1850s America, where slavery was a societal norm and most people supported it, slavery was “good”?
Gerv, I feel like you are trying to invalidate something that is generally well known: people are able to lead good lives without a directive or approval of god. I feel like we are going in circles so I am dipping out.
Don’t be silly, of course it wasn’t, but it was as you say societally normal. Our definition of “good” evolves. This is why today being gay or trans is more accepted than ever, we are becoming more accepting.
In any case, if god really defined good and evil, why did he allow millions to be enslaved? It doesn’t make sense.
I’m being repeatedly told that I’m not a moral person. I’m being told I’m an atheist. I’m not being a dick, and I can do that without necessarily being “friendly”.
That was me attempting to chop off the thread, because I knew where this would lead. Running a thread about religion — especially Christianity — is a tremendously bad idea.
I’m so over this thread.
Ok, that’s cool. It’s not like it’s any of our jobs or anything to post on Bad Voltage. See you around other threads
I am actually super proud of how everyone has participated. Agreed though that I think we are done here.